Comments on: A Dark Night Exit Strategy http://www.vincenthorn.com/2008/10/01/a-dark-night-exit-strategy/ Buddhist Geek, Digital Innovator Tue, 12 Oct 2010 14:42:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Alan http://www.vincenthorn.com/2008/10/01/a-dark-night-exit-strategy/comment-page-1/#comment-1142 Alan Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:43:25 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=921#comment-1142 I think the problem with lining up the maps lies in the misunderstanding of what these maps are. A map or model is not just a conceptual framework that outlines certain experiences; a model is a paradigm, which is an injunction ('if you want to be an arahat, perform vipassana everyday' or 'if you want to know God, perform Centred Prayer everyday', and so on). You cannot seperate the experience from the injunction, and so if working within a Theravada model you get Theravada surface features, within a Christian model and you get Christian surface features. But above and beyond this there are certainly shared deep features that imply both injunctions are concerned with bringing forth a specific kind of experience (namely enlightenment). I think the most fun you can have with map mongering is discovering the similarities and differences by actually peforming the various injunctions for a period (or perhaps with a certain event as a goal) and then comparing the experiences for yourself. I think the problem with lining up the maps lies in the misunderstanding of what these maps are. A map or model is not just a conceptual framework that outlines certain experiences; a model is a paradigm, which is an injunction (‘if you want to be an arahat, perform vipassana everyday’ or ‘if you want to know God, perform Centred Prayer everyday’, and so on). You cannot seperate the experience from the injunction, and so if working within a Theravada model you get Theravada surface features, within a Christian model and you get Christian surface features. But above and beyond this there are certainly shared deep features that imply both injunctions are concerned with bringing forth a specific kind of experience (namely enlightenment).

I think the most fun you can have with map mongering is discovering the similarities and differences by actually peforming the various injunctions for a period (or perhaps with a certain event as a goal) and then comparing the experiences for yourself.

]]> By: David http://www.vincenthorn.com/2008/10/01/a-dark-night-exit-strategy/comment-page-1/#comment-1141 David Fri, 03 Oct 2008 03:34:39 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=921#comment-1141 It is tempting to try and line up the Ladder of Love with other maps on a point by point basis. But in many ways - in terms of trying to pinpoint John's map with specifics in the practical sense of what to look out for in a parallel manner - it doesn't pan out (even though the ultimate insights are very much on target between John's map and at least 2/3rds of the Therav. maps). Where they do not link up, however, is in the sensory way which the previous comment touched on. It is not possible to tie the sensory encounters from John's Nights to the Buddhist maps in a precise way because what is encountered on John's trajectory does not unfold in the same way. Yes, he does (as pointed out) talk about quaking and rattling. However, if one was to try and use that information as perhaps a way to point by point look to link the two maps through looking to lockstep the sensory and physiological encounters, they - in reality - would find a great deal in that area which is not the same. The Ladder of Love, truly, opens up differently physiologically. For example, the cycling does not manifest in the same way at all that it does for serious Buddhist perceptual practitioners. And while the overhaul is most certainly there, and its intensity and overbearing nature is fact. But the way it comes about for one on the Ladder of Love is significantly different. Enough so, (in the day to day dynamics of the unfolding for, say, a Vipassana practitioner) that to try and compare them on a point by point basis (rather than in the broad characteristics, discoveries, dissolving of errors, and immense perceptual sharpening in particular) would potentially put unrealistic expectations on that comparative sensory encounter take on the maps. Expectations that would be misleading as one moves from the maps to the living reality of how these matters actually unfold. That said, I truly am all for looking into these matters and exploring what is both similar and different among the maps, as it is both interesting and insightful to see what alligns and what doesn't. This just happens to be one area in which there is an ability on this end to comment on this one particular matter when it comes to these certain direct comparisons. It is tempting to try and line up the Ladder of Love with other maps on a point by point basis. But in many ways – in terms of trying to pinpoint John’s map with specifics in the practical sense of what to look out for in a parallel manner – it doesn’t pan out (even though the ultimate insights are very much on target between John’s map and at least 2/3rds of the Therav. maps). Where they do not link up, however, is in the sensory way which the previous comment touched on. It is not possible to tie the sensory encounters from John’s Nights to the Buddhist maps in a precise way because what is encountered on John’s trajectory does not unfold in the same way. Yes, he does (as pointed out) talk about quaking and rattling. However, if one was to try and use that information as perhaps a way to point by point look to link the two maps through looking to lockstep the sensory and physiological encounters, they – in reality – would find a great deal in that area which is not the same. The Ladder of Love, truly, opens up differently physiologically. For example, the cycling does not manifest in the same way at all that it does for serious Buddhist perceptual practitioners. And while the overhaul is most certainly there, and its intensity and overbearing nature is fact. But the way it comes about for one on the Ladder of Love is significantly different. Enough so, (in the day to day dynamics of the unfolding for, say, a Vipassana practitioner) that to try and compare them on a point by point basis (rather than in the broad characteristics, discoveries, dissolving of errors, and immense perceptual sharpening in particular) would potentially put unrealistic expectations on that comparative sensory encounter take on the maps. Expectations that would be misleading as one moves from the maps to the living reality of how these matters actually unfold. That said, I truly am all for looking into these matters and exploring what is both similar and different among the maps, as it is both interesting and insightful to see what alligns and what doesn’t. This just happens to be one area in which there is an ability on this end to comment on this one particular matter when it comes to these certain direct comparisons.

]]> By: nathan http://www.vincenthorn.com/2008/10/01/a-dark-night-exit-strategy/comment-page-1/#comment-1140 nathan Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:54:24 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=921#comment-1140 [map-mongering] This is technical, but i guess since this is a place sometimes devouted to map-geek stuff, I have a different take. St. John puts things into an order of novicehood, dark night of senses, adeptship, dark night of the soul, then union with god/ladder of love. Early after the description of the "dark night of the senses" he states that those who are adept may experience "quaking" that "rattles the bones" or something like that (the chapter on this, the post-night of the sense period, is very short)--which sounds like a late first vipassana jhana or second vipassana jhana thing. So I can see that the night of the senses enters as the "Three Characteristics" and the night of the soul is the dukkha nanas. At the same time you could see it as a broader map--he might be dealing with the "supramundane" jhanas/paths. It is one of those things where while it's essentially the same territory, the maps are difficult to line up because of these fine-detail discrepencies[/map-mongering] that aside, the more websites that tell people they may already be in the dark night and don't know it, the better [map-mongering]
This is technical, but i guess since this is a place sometimes devouted to map-geek stuff, I have a different take. St. John puts things into an order of novicehood, dark night of senses, adeptship, dark night of the soul, then union with god/ladder of love. Early after the description of the “dark night of the senses” he states that those who are adept may experience “quaking” that “rattles the bones” or something like that (the chapter on this, the post-night of the sense period, is very short)–which sounds like a late first vipassana jhana or second vipassana jhana thing. So I can see that the night of the senses enters as the “Three Characteristics” and the night of the soul is the dukkha nanas. At the same time you could see it as a broader map–he might be dealing with the “supramundane” jhanas/paths.

It is one of those things where while it’s essentially the same territory, the maps are difficult to line up because of these fine-detail discrepencies[/map-mongering]

that aside, the more websites that tell people they may already be in the dark night and don’t know it, the better

]]> By: bella http://www.vincenthorn.com/2008/10/01/a-dark-night-exit-strategy/comment-page-1/#comment-1139 bella Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:32:31 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=921#comment-1139 I like how you differentiated between the different kinds of suffering, and the encouragement to keep practicing, even if the practice/mode has to change up a bit. I like how you differentiated between the different kinds of suffering, and the encouragement to keep practicing, even if the practice/mode has to change up a bit.

]]>