Comments for Numinous Nonsense http://www.vincenthorn.com Because the Mystery is Transrational Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:55:46 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 Comment on Moving Toward Wholeness by Vince Horn http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/03/04/moving-toward-wholeness/comment-page-1/#comment-596143 Vince Horn Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:55:46 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1122#comment-596143 @Shane : Yes, I've seen that there are limitations to any approach or perspective which takes itself to be complete. It's been a couple years since I've been very aligned w/ Daniel's perspective (though I still appreciate his take on things and am very grateful toward him personally), and there was never a time where I didn't see that there were limitations there. But seeing limitations and growing out of them more fully are two different things. "Today's enlightenment is tomorrow's mistake" as is said in Zen. Also there's something in your comment, if I may point it out, that comes across as condescending. Not sure what that's about, but I'm not willing to take on your projections or judgments, if they don't fit. I reserve those kind of explorations for people I know, who have engaged in honest dialogue & inquiry with me. We haven't done either. @Shane : Yes, I’ve seen that there are limitations to any approach or perspective which takes itself to be complete. It’s been a couple years since I’ve been very aligned w/ Daniel’s perspective (though I still appreciate his take on things and am very grateful toward him personally), and there was never a time where I didn’t see that there were limitations there. But seeing limitations and growing out of them more fully are two different things. “Today’s enlightenment is tomorrow’s mistake” as is said in Zen.

Also there’s something in your comment, if I may point it out, that comes across as condescending. Not sure what that’s about, but I’m not willing to take on your projections or judgments, if they don’t fit. I reserve those kind of explorations for people I know, who have engaged in honest dialogue & inquiry with me. We haven’t done either.

]]> Comment on Moving Toward Wholeness by Shane http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/03/04/moving-toward-wholeness/comment-page-1/#comment-596142 Shane Tue, 16 Mar 2010 07:47:59 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1122#comment-596142 Seems like you might have finally seen some of the limitations of the Daniel Ingram "arhat" approach & perspective...good for you! Seems like you might have finally seen some of the limitations of the Daniel Ingram “arhat” approach & perspective…good for you!

]]> Comment on Moving Toward Wholeness by Rohan http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/03/04/moving-toward-wholeness/comment-page-1/#comment-596137 Rohan Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:53:37 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1122#comment-596137 Amen to that! Amen to that!

]]> Comment on Moving Toward Wholeness by Dave http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/03/04/moving-toward-wholeness/comment-page-1/#comment-596128 Dave Thu, 04 Mar 2010 18:14:03 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1122#comment-596128 Though I haven't dub as deep into the practice, I can totally relate to shifting from a goal of transcendance to one of wholeness. I look forward to hearing what you two have to say about your sesshin with Diane when you return. Though I haven’t dub as deep into the practice, I can totally relate to shifting from a goal of transcendance to one of wholeness. I look forward to hearing what you two have to say about your sesshin with Diane when you return.

]]> Comment on The Supply and Demand of Awakening by Mike "Gozen" LaTorra http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/02/15/the-supply-and-demand-of-awakening/comment-page-1/#comment-596126 Mike "Gozen" LaTorra Thu, 04 Mar 2010 11:53:24 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1097#comment-596126 Vince, you are correct that Awakening is not a thing so it can never be in short supply. However, the number of people who can write as you did about this most wonderful recognition is -- and has always been -- in very short supply. Thanks so much for sharing your insight with the world. Vince, you are correct that Awakening is not a thing so it can never be in short supply. However, the number of people who can write as you did about this most wonderful recognition is — and has always been — in very short supply. Thanks so much for sharing your insight with the world.

]]> Comment on Choiceless Awareness by Rohan http://www.vincenthorn.com/2008/01/15/choiceless-awareness/comment-page-1/#comment-596124 Rohan Thu, 04 Mar 2010 03:04:23 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/2008/01/15/choiceless-awareness/#comment-596124 I have a background of vipassana meditation which focusses on breath concentration and body scan but since the time since i heard about this word choiceless awareness by krishnamurti , i must admit that very fact of concentrating on a particular object or technique seems to be an obstacle. The big difference i have seen in myself is the attitude before in which enlightenment was supposed to be a possible event in distant future whereas in choiceless awareness it is about cultivating the factors that constitute awakening. Also i have experienced much benefit doing choiceless awareness wherein concentration and insight is developed by very nature of passive observation rather than an effort to obtain the same. Vince, correct me if i am going in a wrong direction as you are much more experienced than me. Also are there any traditions which purely focus on choiceless awareness ? i would be interested to know. Thanks I have a background of vipassana meditation which focusses on breath concentration and body scan but since the time since i heard about this word choiceless awareness by krishnamurti , i must admit that very fact of concentrating on a particular object or technique seems to be an obstacle. The big difference i have seen in myself is the attitude before in which enlightenment was supposed to be a possible event in distant future whereas in choiceless awareness it is about cultivating the factors that constitute awakening. Also i have experienced much benefit doing choiceless awareness wherein concentration and insight is developed by very nature of passive observation rather than an effort to obtain the same.

Vince, correct me if i am going in a wrong direction as you are much more experienced than me. Also are there any traditions which purely focus on choiceless awareness ? i would be interested to know.

Thanks

]]> Comment on What Needs No Verification? by Mike "Gozen" LaTorra http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/02/26/what-needs-no-verification/comment-page-1/#comment-596120 Mike "Gozen" LaTorra Wed, 03 Mar 2010 03:19:30 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1114#comment-596120 "It is neither the wind nor the flag that moves; it is the minds of the honorable gentlemen which move." -- Hui Neng, Sixth Patriarch of Ch'an Buddhism “It is neither the wind nor the flag that moves; it is the minds of the honorable gentlemen which move.”
– Hui Neng, Sixth Patriarch of Ch’an Buddhism

]]> Comment on What Needs No Verification? by Vince Horn http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/02/26/what-needs-no-verification/comment-page-1/#comment-596113 Vince Horn Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:37:00 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1114#comment-596113 Hey Hokai, Cool, I'll pick up what you're throwing down here. :-D What you say about the deepening never ending makes a lot of sense. I suppose when I wrote this post, I was coming more from a place of actively exploring the insights that are happening for me personally, right now. Particularly around noticing this tendency to want verification and then a deep knowing that outside verification is missing the essential point. I didn't include a lot of these details, in part, for fear of being misunderstood or sharing too many details of my personal process (which right now feels a bit vulnerable). That said, if I were to do that it would probably show the personal process side of the things much more, in particular the fact that I don't know what the hell is coming next, and I never really have. Instead of doing that though, I've opted for a kind of 3rd person affirmative voice. I think that voice tends to lend itself more to what you seem to be hesitant about, and that makes a lot of sense. This is something I definitely need to consider more, as I figure out how to write about these things. -Vince Hey Hokai,

Cool, I’ll pick up what you’re throwing down here. :-D

What you say about the deepening never ending makes a lot of sense. I suppose when I wrote this post, I was coming more from a place of actively exploring the insights that are happening for me personally, right now. Particularly around noticing this tendency to want verification and then a deep knowing that outside verification is missing the essential point. I didn’t include a lot of these details, in part, for fear of being misunderstood or sharing too many details of my personal process (which right now feels a bit vulnerable). That said, if I were to do that it would probably show the personal process side of the things much more, in particular the fact that I don’t know what the hell is coming next, and I never really have.

Instead of doing that though, I’ve opted for a kind of 3rd person affirmative voice. I think that voice tends to lend itself more to what you seem to be hesitant about, and that makes a lot of sense. This is something I definitely need to consider more, as I figure out how to write about these things.

-Vince

]]> Comment on What Needs No Verification? by Hokai http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/02/26/what-needs-no-verification/comment-page-1/#comment-596112 Hokai Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:29:24 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1114#comment-596112 Beautiful! You know:) this is something I agree with soooo much, and yet, and yet... since the definition of awakening, and wakefulness or even awakeness/awareness itself, whether primordial or actual[ized], in circulation out there isn't as clear-cut as we'd like it, even saying it's a non-experience and a non-thing doesn't save us from trouble. So, there definitely is the event of recognition of the fact of wakefulness, which event - usually gradually extending its scope - becomes inclusive of all experience. The emphasis in most if not all Buddhist approaches is on the recognition, whether sudden or gradual or sudden-realization-gradual-cultivation, while with certain Advaitist more emphasis is on that which is recognized, and which in itself has been so before, during, and after the re/cognition. So, Buddhists will say "x" and usually mean recognition, while Advaitist will say "x" and usually mean that which is [recognized]. (The doctrinal geeks may remember the most subtle distinction between jnana-dharmakaya and svabhava-dharmakaya.) In short, it remains a tricky issue.:) In practice, either way, the deepening never ends, every point whether in time or timeless being a beginning and an end at once. Therefore, yesterday's timeless realization is today's limitation. This paradox must be aimed for and embodied intentionally, or what has been seen as the simplest thing will tend to reify itself into a some/thing. The impulse of sacrificing that which needs no verification to daily confirmation arises from within the space between us. And that's where/why I feel hesitant about this matter, since after ascertaining that which needs no verification we are asked to forgo even that, the only certainty. Beautiful! You know:) this is something I agree with soooo much, and yet, and yet… since the definition of awakening, and wakefulness or even awakeness/awareness itself, whether primordial or actual[ized], in circulation out there isn’t as clear-cut as we’d like it, even saying it’s a non-experience and a non-thing doesn’t save us from trouble. So, there definitely is the event of recognition of the fact of wakefulness, which event – usually gradually extending its scope – becomes inclusive of all experience. The emphasis in most if not all Buddhist approaches is on the recognition, whether sudden or gradual or sudden-realization-gradual-cultivation, while with certain Advaitist more emphasis is on that which is recognized, and which in itself has been so before, during, and after the re/cognition. So, Buddhists will say “x” and usually mean recognition, while Advaitist will say “x” and usually mean that which is [recognized]. (The doctrinal geeks may remember the most subtle distinction between jnana-dharmakaya and svabhava-dharmakaya.) In short, it remains a tricky issue.:)

In practice, either way, the deepening never ends, every point whether in time or timeless being a beginning and an end at once. Therefore, yesterday’s timeless realization is today’s limitation. This paradox must be aimed for and embodied intentionally, or what has been seen as the simplest thing will tend to reify itself into a some/thing. The impulse of sacrificing that which needs no verification to daily confirmation arises from within the space between us. And that’s where/why I feel hesitant about this matter, since after ascertaining that which needs no verification we are asked to forgo even that, the only certainty.

]]> Comment on The Supply and Demand of Awakening by Jeff http://www.vincenthorn.com/2010/02/15/the-supply-and-demand-of-awakening/comment-page-1/#comment-596103 Jeff Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:14:23 +0000 http://www.vincenthorn.com/?p=1097#comment-596103 I don't get it, either I'm a dimwit or this post is truly "numinous nonsense" maybe both are so! I don’t get it, either I’m a dimwit or this post is truly “numinous nonsense” maybe both are so!

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